systema appreciation thread

Discussion in 'Systema' started by Eric M. Miller, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    If you want to see my idea of a Russian combative used by the Russian military that I respect, take a look at Combat Sambo. Plenty of videos of combat Sambo being trained in the manner that I think builds realistic fighting skill.

     
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  2. Eric M. Miller

    Eric M. Miller Samurai

    two completely different arts. one is almost a jujitsu, with striking (like a russian mma) and the other is their very ninjitsu like krav maga.
     
  3. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    The core skills of body movement and redirection are sound but when zooming on on specifics such as the blade flattening against the body and the outright blade grabs are giving me a hard time to not just call everything BS. I'm viewing this from an FMA perspective (Vee Arnis Jitsu), so I've done/do flow drills (redirection and body movement combined), and drilled worst-case scenarios with the blade or blades against the body almost everywhere (from the femoral on up to the carotid/jugular, front, back and sideways), sparred with training blades with chalked-edges, etc. Even if I give them the benefit of the doubt for the blade flattening as a viable technique, the blade grabbing is a no-go. Maybe I'll get to work with a Systema guy and he'll wow me, so I'll reserve final judgement until then...
     
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  4. TheWhiteTiger

    TheWhiteTiger Taoist Immortal

    One is most definitely jujutsu like. Sambo comes from Judo, which itself is a form of gendai jujitsu, mixed with Russian folk wrestling and toyed about with, techniques added from disparate arts etc. It's effectiveness has been proved both as a sport in the cage (a certain pudgy legend comes to mind... what was his name... Fido... Fiddler... FEDOR! That's right, Fedor Emilianenko!) and as a combative system (the Combat Sambo Enkidu is talking about).

    The thing about Systema is I've never actually seen it being used effectively. Mr Bond posted up some better vids (thanks for the info BTW Mr Bond, and for the courtesy) and explained a little about it, but I remain unconvinced. No matter how it's explained away, any art that teaches you to parry knife blades with your hand or roll them off your stomach is teaching you how to get cut full of holes. I'll say again that I may have missed the point of that... it may have ben some kind of drill to build awareness or flow or something, and if so, fine, but they looked like techniques to me. Insanely bad techniques that would have been not only impractical but down right suicidal if anyone had been moving at half speed or more.

    Also, I wasn't talking about Vlad (I'm well aware who he is as I have a few of his dvd's) I was talking about the guy in Mr Bonds first vid. Those techniques (if that's what they are, rather than drills) are just incongruent with any kind of real world experience.

    I can believe that RSF practise Systema of one variant ('systema' is Russian for the system, and does not describe one martial art, but many, much like Kung Fu describes chinese martial arts) but I find it hard to imagine them parrying blades with open hands. In any case, the military shouldn't be held up as authorities on hand to hand combat. By far the majority of their time is spent learning how to do far more practical things warfare wise, like learn how to use guns and shit like that.

    At the end of the day, I won't completely discount it without experiencing it first hand, but I would like to see some kind of proof that Systema works. Either in a sparring match against other styles (or even just their own guys actually resisting whole heartedly) or in a real fight. If we're not asking for proof of claims like this, then I'd love to sell you my book on the ancient Celtic art of Ooterkrap, which was passed down from my Welsh grandfather to me. I'm the last living exponent of said art and would just like to assure you that I can defeat any man alive using its techniques. So you'll understand that it's expensive. But it's more than worth it. Just buy the book and experience it for yourself and you'll see.

    Ok, obviously, I jest. And like I said, there are a couple of things that I like. Since you all seem polite and rational, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for now, and next time I'm on mainland UK I'll make a few calls and hook up with a Systema guy to experience it firsthand, and report back.
     
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  5. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    My favorite part!:D(y)
     
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  6. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    Yeah, I literally did laugh out loud when I read "Ooterkrap"!
     
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  7. ghost

    ghost Disciple

    Systema is a combination of many, various Russian martial arts. Its ground work is based in Russian and various styles of folk wrestling/Sambo. You have to work out with an experienced Systema practitioner to really appreciate it. I've been cross-training in it for about 6 years now and have trained with both Vladimir and Mikhail. As far as knife work goes, both, Vladimir and Mikhail and a few other top practitioners really know what they are doing. The knife work in Systema would never approach FMA or other Pacific Rim edged weapons practices on their own terms, otherwise, Systema would be eaten alive in this area. There are several exponents of the Escrima-Kali-Arnis school of thought I've met that have been training in the System for years, as well. They do understand where Systema's strengths and weaknesses are in comparison to their original background arts concerning knives and other larger bladed weaponry.

    That may be true with the US Military, but the Spetnaz are considered an authority, and have been on combatives, throughout their existence in the modern Russian military. Although, JSOC, and various components of the US SOCOM rely heavily on the best military technology money can buy for use in coordination with or against small unit/assymmetric strategies (COIN) they acknowledge that the top element of Russian special operation units have an advantage in hand to hand combat. Technology doesn't always decide the outcome of wars, though, US units that are highly trained in areas of guerrilla warfare strategies that foresees or assumes circumstances where access to technology may be denied to operators in any given field, would definitely lose a huge advantage against Spetnaz forces, in hand to hand and small arms tactics.
     
  8. Gone

    Gone Guest

    Yeah, I never really liked how they are suppose to defend against knives but in those situations if you have no other choice, might as well gamble one of them things they did/do teach rather than just not try at all.

    ZDK from what I have been told and read, is pretty much "Australian Systema"
     
  9. Eric M. Miller

    Eric M. Miller Samurai

    talked to the maker of the video. his reply was general knife advice saying that you arent gripping the blade. and then a refferenceto the following vieo
     
  10. Eric M. Miller

    Eric M. Miller Samurai

  11. ghost

    ghost Disciple

    Yeah, this guy lives, trains and teaches in the UK. His background consists of training in Aiki Jujitsu, Ninpo Taijutsu, Karate, Judo, Aikido and Systema. He really knows his stuff. He's also suffering from the debilitating effects of MS. I've enjoyed watching his videos over the years. A truly positive, master craftsman.
     
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